Thank you for sharing your thoughts on hero worship. As a Christian I do believe humans have a natural inclination to worship. Unfortunately history has demonstrated that we continually put our faith in the wrong people. I wonder what ideas could help prevent this.
Thank you, Joan. Nice to see you here :) We certainly do put our faith in the wrong people, and maybe that is actually the result of the decline of organized religion. It's definitely worth thinking about what ideas/actions might help prevent this type of worship.
Kenedy's categorical statements about Israel are indeed disappointing. As if he is ignorant of the entire history, but I don't think he is. What could motivate him to do such an aboutface and backtrack on his running platform of seeking peace and an end to war? Is he speaking for himself or because he must?
Likewise, Eisenstein work I've generally found too tedious, too careful... appeasing as you say. Is he now just covering for Kennedy's unanticipated rashness? A good friend of mine is a great admirer of Eisenstein.
Tobin, I'm comforted to hear that someone else feels the same about Eisenstein's work. As I wrote, I used to admire him greatly, but then I learned more about who he is, what he stands for, and how he actually handles conflict/uncomfortable topics. He's very tedious, calculated, and he tends to show a lot of naivety in his analyses (which he often admits to), though it might be 'put on'. I don't find it to be intellectually satisfying anymore. I'm also more skeptical of adults who are perpetually naive, makes me feel like they may lack life experience, though I realize that may be a completely unfair/inaccurate assessment!
The only people who say "Be your own savior" are Children of the Devil.
The wise never say such things.
Which war did you fight in again, Rozali? Believe it or not, our ancestors have figured out many of these things prior to your considering them. We had these things worked out many centuries ago as a meritocracy. Those with the most merit we tend to think of as heroes and so they likely were.
Our entire civilization is based on heroes and Jesus Christ is at the top of that pantheon. It's the reason we were able to build this civilization that lasted 250 years.
How long did the civilization you built last? Where is it? I'll bet it's much better than this one, I want to move there.
Check your own feet to see where they voted on this issue.
Thanks for your comment. As you are Christian, I wonder why you have chosen not to show kindness and grace in your comment to me?
Regardless, I think we actually agree on more than we disagree. My biggest concern is the worship of modern-day/manufactured heroes, as I explain above. I think it’s admirable that you have conviction and you have strong beliefs. But I’m confused as to why you are being hostile to me as if I called these beliefs into question? People who generally have unshakeable principles do not easily feel threatened by the opinion of others.
I did not serve in any war because on principle I would never fight a war on behalf of a ruling elite that wants us to do their bidding for them and kill each other for their own interests.
That ruling elite started with critique of our heroes, proceeded to critique our entire culture, then finally critique our very existence and our right to live on any territory anywhere. We never wanted to rub it in but everything of any importance over the last 2000 years of recorded history has been accomplished by White Christians. Our modesty and humility is what has led to this tragic state of madness where they are burning our cities, overturning our monuments and erasing us from history. It all started with critique of our heroes and telling us they were nothing but thieves and knaves.
If you are speaking of modern day celebrities manufactured by the mass media, it only reinforces the need to resurrect our heroes and our best men and women once again. The essence of meritocracy is to concede somewhere somebody has set an example you need to raise your own standards to meet. The cry of the millennials that nobody is better than them is hilarious stuff coming from people who barely read and write at a 2nd or 3rd grade level and can't speak in complete sentences. Rather than abandon our heroes, discard this loathsome culture that has tried to replace our entire heritage with it's own false idols. We need to rewind to November 22, 1963 and ten seconds before they blew up President Kennedy's head. That culture was superior to everything on the planet and getting better by the hour before they killed our king.
Remember, nobody is trying to escape us to live elsewhere. We don't need them, they need us. Without us they are nothing at all. I dare them to pack up and move to any other nation on the planet and build something remotely as good anywhere. We got this far because we respect our ancestors and honor our father and mother as the commandment tells us to do. The best of our ancestors we think of as heroes. We don't care if they had wooden teeth, gout or owned slaves. They were a better breed of men than modern males by an immeasurable distance.
Psalms 118:8 (KJV) [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Matthew 24 - reveals the days we are living in now. Also known as The beginning of Sorrows.
Matthew 24:3-5 (KJV) 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Region is bound to decline in these days, because the stage is being set for the coming of the lawless one, otherwise known as the Son of perdition, or Antichrist.
1 Timothy 4:1 (KJV)
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
As the times become perilous, people will
desperately seek a hero to save them. This is exactly what Trump has been to many Americans on the right, just like Obama was to the ones on the left.
God’s Word revealed the truth all along, and since people rejected that truth (Jesus Christ) in favor of worshipping someone else (or themselves) than this is what they’re going to get:
Strong delusion
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (KJV) 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
John 14:6 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
The rulers of this world seek the forbidden fruit of knowledge, thinking that in the process they will discover how to reverse the curse of sin, and gain immortality.
These people are foolish. They openly reject God, and have chosen to trust Satan instead. Science is their religion.
You personally seem to have a “New Age” mindset, and although it may seem correct, I would have you ponder the following verse:
Proverbs 14:12 (KJV)
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
You are childish and do not know that without leadership, a people will be destroyed. Christianity is not and never was a suicide pact. The only man we ever look to for salvation is Jesus Christ. If God sends us someone as leadership, your faith is weak not to recognize it. I don't know if Trump is just another shill or not but I believe if he is authentic he is handpicked by God.
Speaking as somebody who is no respecter of persons, I know only too well that if you allow people to atomize us into individuals who have no leaders, they will have no trouble exterminating us at all. What comfort will it be to them if you tell them they will be going to heaven if they just drop their pants and bend over? Do not presume to leadership yourself with no leadership qualities.
Christianity was never a low testosterone religion for cucks and weaklings, it's just what the current generation of zero T catamites have turned it into. Christianity commands you to support your nation, your brothers and your faith and to fight for them when necessary.
It is the Lord who teaches my hands to fight and the Lord's counsel that tells me we must be in deference to our real leadership. Like I said, if you've never been punched in the face and knocked down you're probably not going to know much about protecting your nation or your existence. We honor our mothers and fathers when we respect our ancestors and seek heroes in our history. You go be ironic, cool and too sophisticated for that, it's what your generation does best.
Read my piece. I literally wrote we need good leadership. I'm not saying we should do without leadership entirely.
I have tried extending you grace, but you seem to be incapable of extending it in return. You're rude, disrespectful, and lack reading comprehension skills. I'm not going to continue corresponding with someone who cannot reciprocate good will.
I may be a fanatic but I know how to spell "interrupt." You should have found grammatical heroes when you were little, you would not have turned out this way.
Seriously though, your thoughts resonate so closely with mine they could shatter a wine glass at 100 yards. I've just started reading you so not much to add as yet, but one thing I would point out...
"To circumvent hero worship, we must focus more on ideas, as Chomsky rightly argues."
Ideas are usually expressed in words, so I would argue that before we start sharing ideas we need to understand the words we're using, and for that I would recommend two books, both written in the 1930's. First is Alfred Korzybski's 'Science and Sanity" second is Stuart Chase's "The Tyranny of Words."
Korzybski is tough sledding and very academically focused. Chase does a comprehensive summary of Korzybski and is probably a better place to start the study of General Semantics, which is a lot more fun than it sounds.
As for heroes, I believe there's an underlying biological impetus as you suggest. Simply put, it's an extension of the instinct for survival which all creatures possess. This manifests as a need for security - which is to say, an understanding of how the world operates and how we can safely navigate it. However, in order to achieve security we need to take risks, so there's an inherent conflict between our need to know and our ability to find out, which often is delegated to authority in some form or another, since most of us aren't up to the task of confronting the world on our own. That the main reason we form groups, societies, hierarchies etc. We are, after all, social animals.
Korzybski really helps sort this all out by defining something he called a "Belief System." The concept of Belief Systems is powerful in that it subsumes religion, ideology, politics and even our idea of 'self.' Basically we all have a belief system, the critical points being 1) whether we recognize it in ourselves and not just others, and 2) how we go about examining our own beliefs, starting with "why do I believe the things I do?"
There's a lot more of course, but I don't want to spoil it for you, so I'll just leave it at that.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on hero worship. As a Christian I do believe humans have a natural inclination to worship. Unfortunately history has demonstrated that we continually put our faith in the wrong people. I wonder what ideas could help prevent this.
Thank you, Joan. Nice to see you here :) We certainly do put our faith in the wrong people, and maybe that is actually the result of the decline of organized religion. It's definitely worth thinking about what ideas/actions might help prevent this type of worship.
Kenedy's categorical statements about Israel are indeed disappointing. As if he is ignorant of the entire history, but I don't think he is. What could motivate him to do such an aboutface and backtrack on his running platform of seeking peace and an end to war? Is he speaking for himself or because he must?
Likewise, Eisenstein work I've generally found too tedious, too careful... appeasing as you say. Is he now just covering for Kennedy's unanticipated rashness? A good friend of mine is a great admirer of Eisenstein.
Tobin, I'm comforted to hear that someone else feels the same about Eisenstein's work. As I wrote, I used to admire him greatly, but then I learned more about who he is, what he stands for, and how he actually handles conflict/uncomfortable topics. He's very tedious, calculated, and he tends to show a lot of naivety in his analyses (which he often admits to), though it might be 'put on'. I don't find it to be intellectually satisfying anymore. I'm also more skeptical of adults who are perpetually naive, makes me feel like they may lack life experience, though I realize that may be a completely unfair/inaccurate assessment!
The only people who say "Be your own savior" are Children of the Devil.
The wise never say such things.
Which war did you fight in again, Rozali? Believe it or not, our ancestors have figured out many of these things prior to your considering them. We had these things worked out many centuries ago as a meritocracy. Those with the most merit we tend to think of as heroes and so they likely were.
Our entire civilization is based on heroes and Jesus Christ is at the top of that pantheon. It's the reason we were able to build this civilization that lasted 250 years.
How long did the civilization you built last? Where is it? I'll bet it's much better than this one, I want to move there.
Check your own feet to see where they voted on this issue.
Thanks for your comment. As you are Christian, I wonder why you have chosen not to show kindness and grace in your comment to me?
Regardless, I think we actually agree on more than we disagree. My biggest concern is the worship of modern-day/manufactured heroes, as I explain above. I think it’s admirable that you have conviction and you have strong beliefs. But I’m confused as to why you are being hostile to me as if I called these beliefs into question? People who generally have unshakeable principles do not easily feel threatened by the opinion of others.
I did not serve in any war because on principle I would never fight a war on behalf of a ruling elite that wants us to do their bidding for them and kill each other for their own interests.
All the best.
That ruling elite started with critique of our heroes, proceeded to critique our entire culture, then finally critique our very existence and our right to live on any territory anywhere. We never wanted to rub it in but everything of any importance over the last 2000 years of recorded history has been accomplished by White Christians. Our modesty and humility is what has led to this tragic state of madness where they are burning our cities, overturning our monuments and erasing us from history. It all started with critique of our heroes and telling us they were nothing but thieves and knaves.
If you are speaking of modern day celebrities manufactured by the mass media, it only reinforces the need to resurrect our heroes and our best men and women once again. The essence of meritocracy is to concede somewhere somebody has set an example you need to raise your own standards to meet. The cry of the millennials that nobody is better than them is hilarious stuff coming from people who barely read and write at a 2nd or 3rd grade level and can't speak in complete sentences. Rather than abandon our heroes, discard this loathsome culture that has tried to replace our entire heritage with it's own false idols. We need to rewind to November 22, 1963 and ten seconds before they blew up President Kennedy's head. That culture was superior to everything on the planet and getting better by the hour before they killed our king.
Remember, nobody is trying to escape us to live elsewhere. We don't need them, they need us. Without us they are nothing at all. I dare them to pack up and move to any other nation on the planet and build something remotely as good anywhere. We got this far because we respect our ancestors and honor our father and mother as the commandment tells us to do. The best of our ancestors we think of as heroes. We don't care if they had wooden teeth, gout or owned slaves. They were a better breed of men than modern males by an immeasurable distance.
The middle verse of the entire Bible:
Psalms 118:8 (KJV) [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Matthew 24 - reveals the days we are living in now. Also known as The beginning of Sorrows.
Matthew 24:3-5 (KJV) 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Region is bound to decline in these days, because the stage is being set for the coming of the lawless one, otherwise known as the Son of perdition, or Antichrist.
1 Timothy 4:1 (KJV)
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
As the times become perilous, people will
desperately seek a hero to save them. This is exactly what Trump has been to many Americans on the right, just like Obama was to the ones on the left.
God’s Word revealed the truth all along, and since people rejected that truth (Jesus Christ) in favor of worshipping someone else (or themselves) than this is what they’re going to get:
Strong delusion
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (KJV) 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
John 14:6 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
The rulers of this world seek the forbidden fruit of knowledge, thinking that in the process they will discover how to reverse the curse of sin, and gain immortality.
These people are foolish. They openly reject God, and have chosen to trust Satan instead. Science is their religion.
You personally seem to have a “New Age” mindset, and although it may seem correct, I would have you ponder the following verse:
Proverbs 14:12 (KJV)
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
You are childish and do not know that without leadership, a people will be destroyed. Christianity is not and never was a suicide pact. The only man we ever look to for salvation is Jesus Christ. If God sends us someone as leadership, your faith is weak not to recognize it. I don't know if Trump is just another shill or not but I believe if he is authentic he is handpicked by God.
Speaking as somebody who is no respecter of persons, I know only too well that if you allow people to atomize us into individuals who have no leaders, they will have no trouble exterminating us at all. What comfort will it be to them if you tell them they will be going to heaven if they just drop their pants and bend over? Do not presume to leadership yourself with no leadership qualities.
Christianity was never a low testosterone religion for cucks and weaklings, it's just what the current generation of zero T catamites have turned it into. Christianity commands you to support your nation, your brothers and your faith and to fight for them when necessary.
It is the Lord who teaches my hands to fight and the Lord's counsel that tells me we must be in deference to our real leadership. Like I said, if you've never been punched in the face and knocked down you're probably not going to know much about protecting your nation or your existence. We honor our mothers and fathers when we respect our ancestors and seek heroes in our history. You go be ironic, cool and too sophisticated for that, it's what your generation does best.
Read my piece. I literally wrote we need good leadership. I'm not saying we should do without leadership entirely.
I have tried extending you grace, but you seem to be incapable of extending it in return. You're rude, disrespectful, and lack reading comprehension skills. I'm not going to continue corresponding with someone who cannot reciprocate good will.
Good day to you.
Seems like you ran into a deeply embedded belief system there.
I don't comprehend why these two fanatics should interupt upon such a thoughtful well-written piece with such rudeness. My sympathies
I may be a fanatic but I know how to spell "interrupt." You should have found grammatical heroes when you were little, you would not have turned out this way.
Wow Rozali! You're my hero!
Seriously though, your thoughts resonate so closely with mine they could shatter a wine glass at 100 yards. I've just started reading you so not much to add as yet, but one thing I would point out...
"To circumvent hero worship, we must focus more on ideas, as Chomsky rightly argues."
Ideas are usually expressed in words, so I would argue that before we start sharing ideas we need to understand the words we're using, and for that I would recommend two books, both written in the 1930's. First is Alfred Korzybski's 'Science and Sanity" second is Stuart Chase's "The Tyranny of Words."
Korzybski is tough sledding and very academically focused. Chase does a comprehensive summary of Korzybski and is probably a better place to start the study of General Semantics, which is a lot more fun than it sounds.
https://oceanofpdf.com/authors/stuart-chase/pdf-epub-the-tyranny-of-words-download/
https://oceanofpdf.com/authors/alfred-korzybski/pdf-science-and-sanity-an-introduction-to-non-aristotelian-systems-and-general-semantics-download/
As for heroes, I believe there's an underlying biological impetus as you suggest. Simply put, it's an extension of the instinct for survival which all creatures possess. This manifests as a need for security - which is to say, an understanding of how the world operates and how we can safely navigate it. However, in order to achieve security we need to take risks, so there's an inherent conflict between our need to know and our ability to find out, which often is delegated to authority in some form or another, since most of us aren't up to the task of confronting the world on our own. That the main reason we form groups, societies, hierarchies etc. We are, after all, social animals.
Korzybski really helps sort this all out by defining something he called a "Belief System." The concept of Belief Systems is powerful in that it subsumes religion, ideology, politics and even our idea of 'self.' Basically we all have a belief system, the critical points being 1) whether we recognize it in ourselves and not just others, and 2) how we go about examining our own beliefs, starting with "why do I believe the things I do?"
There's a lot more of course, but I don't want to spoil it for you, so I'll just leave it at that.